Supercharged vs turbocharged.

[106nick]

Dont really understand too much about either.

MY knowledge goes as far as superchargers running off the engine/crankshaft via belts? and turbochargers running off the exhaust gases? blah blah

Now, the 16v gti/vts engine is obviously n/a,

But if you was building the ultimate track demon and didn't want to stick with the normal style n/a engine which out of the two would be better to do?

im just curious....

[Jimbo]

supercharger for instant power. turbo if u don't mind the lag, problem is with the turbo, ur struggling to keep the revs up to keep the turbo spinning. Unless u run an anti-lag sytem like the WRC boys ;D hope that answers the question?

[106nick]

supercharger for instant power. turbo if u don't mind the lag, problem is with the turbo, ur struggling to keep the revs up to keep the turbo spinning. Unless u run an anti-lag sytem like the WRC boys ;D hope that answers the question?

So why does everyone choose to turbo engines? if the supercharged engines are more efficient?

Can lag be solved by lowering the boost?

[106nick]

If you can't afford an anti lag system.

[Jimbo]

errm afraid i dont know the answer to that one lol. i thing superchargers can turn out to be more expensive? not entirely sure though. Yeah i think the more boost the turbo gives, the more " lag" it creates. Like i said tho i don't really work with either, so not 100% sure

[106nick]

Ive read about a few turbocharged/superchared TU lumps but they always get mixed reactions.

People saying they will never run right?

I know once i get an idea into my head i'll end up doing it. Obviously won't be touching my xsi for a few years.

But id love to build a 16v engine with a turbo/supercharger ;D

[Jimbo]

yeah, would be awesome.... imagine the power ;D ;D

im seriously startin to consider it

wish u hadnt started this thread lol

[Fuzzy Orange]

Hmmmmm lag isnt a problem really

Its only a problem to get the car rolling and the boost to spin up

When you change gear and lift off the throttle the butterfly closes on the throttle body - which means all that high pressure air the turbo is trying to ram in cant go anywhere. So the turbo stalls and then you have to wait for it to spin up again in the next gear. Which is what dump valves are for. These open when you change gear and allow the high pressure air to vent to atmosphere so the turbo carries on spinning and is still spinning after the gear change

Its just personal preference really
Superchargers make a lovely noise to those that understand and recognise them, they are belt driven from the alternator belt usually and compress air and force it into the engine

They produce less heat usually as they dont have exhaust gases heating them up and therefore you dont usually need intercoolers and things
With a turbo they get so hot the compressed air normally goes through an intercooler to cool it down before entering the engine

The argument of a supercharger being more efficient isnt true as the supercharger runs from the crank so basically its draining power from your engine that would normally go into the wheels
Whereas a turbo uses exhaust gases so doesnt rob the engine of power - but does take a while to spin up

Hope that clears a few bits up - its too late for a proper answer my eyes are going crossed LOL

[Jimbo]

expert advice ;)

not really as clued up on that kinda thing as i should be lol

[106nick]

Cheers Fuzzy. ;)

Clears a few things up. 8)

So if you was doing one of the two what would you choose?


Do you have to lower the compression of the engine? Could you run a turbo charger on standard pistons and crank?

To lower the compression, instead of low comp pistons, is there a cheaper way?

[rich106quiksilver]

Good explanation Fuzzy. I know my friend had a Turbo + dump valve on his Subaru Legacy, sounds very nice! But had to put up with the turbo lag. Car still flew though!

[106nick]

AHHH, turbos run off the exhaust gases.. Manifolds??

Im guessing you would have to get a custom manifold built for the tu engines??

Is the manifold an important component into the efficiency of the turbo?

[Fuzzy Orange]

Cheers Fuzzy. ;)

Clears a few things up. 8)

So if you was doing one of the two what would you choose?


Do you have to lower the compression of the engine? Could you run a turbo charger on standard pistons and crank?

To lower the compression, instead of low comp pistons, is there a cheaper way?


Don't take this the wrong way mate but just dont bother
If you post anything with the word "cheap" or "cheaper" in it then you cant afford a boosted TU lump

Theres hardly anyone built a reliable turbo'd tu - the only one I know of I advised on parts and made over 200bhp but the guy couldnt handle the power and sold it

Superchargers - I've seen a few good conversions including an 8v saxo vtr making 170/180bhp

But it costs £££ to do properly

Yes you can lower compression ratios with double head gaskets. Yes you can get gadgets that fool the ecu into thinking there isnt a supercharger and then control a 5th and 6th injector for fuelling. Yes they are all cheaper

And yes you'll end up with a seriously unreliable car

If you want to do it you need a decent supercharger, with good oil feed, custom bracket and custom alternator belt installed by someone who knows what he's doing

Good induction piping, a proper ecu (jems or omex) and a proper map for it

And that will cost about £4k LOL

Yes turbo's run off exhaust gases so you have to have a custom manifold made or buy a pre-made one like the DP engineering item
Then boost piping, oil feeds, intercooler, ecu, mapping etc.. etc..

Unless your willing to budget about £3-4k I wouldn't bother

[106nick]

Ta ;)

Im not even considering doing one :D :D :D

Well until i'm:

A) rich
B) older
C) know what i'm doing
D) Brave enough :D

I just want to know how they work :)

cheers for the info.

I bet another problem, after all the engine is done, is getting traction to the wheels :D

[Jimbo]

I bet another problem, after all the engine is done, is getting traction to the wheels :D


LSD ;D ;D

[Raz]

hehe, Well this is just what we are doing on the side at college.

at the mo we are just making a 2.0L zeetec rwd mini ;D oh yea where going to turbo it and stick happy gas in it! fully tricked out with moctec EMS and tvr coilovers (thanks TVR blackpool) anyways....

turbos can spin to way over 150.000 rpm thats faster than a blower can even dream of going! turbos get hot really really hot! like over 800 degrees hot! downside yeah but thats why we have intercoolers. As for lag yeah ok its a downside and anti lag costs a fair bit to set up... but why you you wana be on full boost as your setting off... ey? well il tell you, you dont! so if ya running custom turbo or blower chances are ya allready rigging up a few BHP so lay that down first, then come on boost when ya rolling... supra/skyline lads (and all that jazz) run twin turbos small turbo for bottom end, the small guy can spool up at 3000rpm! sometimes lower, then the 2nd bigger turbo takes over for top end power


blowers are fix to ya lump! this means there on a belt, so there never going to beat the daddy turbo, plus these things can take up to 25% of ya power just to spin em. I.E say a supercharger is giving ya 100BHP gain then 25-35 BHP is required to make the thing function. A turbo only requires about 5BHP to kick out the same power output! kool thing with blowers is you can change the gearing (the pully wheel) to tune how much boost ya want to run.

now facts aside, you thinking of running this on a a gti lump. you can get anything to run right all come down to cost tho....

As fuzzy said you need someone who really knows what there doing. and its not going to be cheap!

but running boost on a 106 sounds out of this world! and when I have the time..... well we will see

hope thats helps, can talk about turbos all day.... ::)

Raz

[Fuzzy Orange]

Exactly what I was trying to stutter out at silly-o-clock in the morning

Given the choice I'd have my car supercharged though LOL

[Luke]

Fuzz you said before about Dump Valves getting rid of gases into the atmosphere. I may be totally wrong but isnt there another type of dump valve that gets rid of the gas another way? Im sure ive read it somewhere.

[James.G]

theres two types. atmospheric which goes 'piitssss' which releases excess gases into the atmosphere. and theres recirculating which still does the same job of releasing excess presure but through a valve which forces it back into a non-pressurised outlet before the turbo..

[Raz]

theres recirculating dump valves, these basically just feed the dumped gas back into the inlet system, they come on saab's and impreza's as stock, they dont make much noise at all.

Raz

[Baker]

hey.... i'm looking at supercharging the rallye once the head work is done. my mate has just put one on his vr6 vento and it's gone from 174bhp to 265bhp he bought the charger 2nd hand for 1200 notes and fitted it himself (no mechanical exp) then had it custom mapped and rolled for 550 notes. sounds AMAZING on the vr6

[Fuzzy Orange]

Mate you can buy a mini cooper S supercharger for under £100 on egay ;)

[Marcs]

I know this is an old thread but i was thinking about turbos all day and did a search for some info.
Just wondered (as i dont know that much)
Has anyone ever turbo'd a quiky?
Is it possible?
Is it worth it?
thanks in advance

[Norledge]

Has anyone ever turbo'd a quiky? - Never seen one personally

Is it possible? - Yes, http://www.dp-engineering.com/EN/products/turbo_kits/component_package/tu_8v_compo.php or DIY for about half that ;)

Is it worth it? - Depends how you look at it... not going to be as fast as a tubro GTi, But for the interest factor! Thers a guy who's turbo'd a 1.1 AX somewhere!

[Marcs]

I was thinkin it might be something different to do . .
.. Not that im gonna do it any time soon but i nice plan for a few years might read into it find out if you could turbo or if twin turbo one:)
I like this idea:D

[Norledge]

Twin Turbo has been done on the 16v, rads had to be moved into the arches, and the front end modified loads to make room... not worth it really :)

[Fuzzy Orange]

Carworx first turbo conversion was a quiky - made 140bhp
So I'd say yes its well worth it LOL

[106XSi_Jay]

Carworx first turbo conversion was a quiky - made 140bhp
So I'd say yes its well worth it LOL

Yeah but the cost of getting it all done properly as you were saying earlier,
You may aswell get a 16v and slap some cams with a full stainless system get abouth the same BHP and with less hassle.
But on a Project factor id say go for it :p

[James.G]

im pretty sure dp did a twin turbo and supercharged 1.4 8v was a 206 tho...

wouldnt mind that in a quicky ;)

[Fuzzy Orange]

Yeah but the cost of getting it all done properly as you were saying earlier,
You may aswell get a 16v and slap some cams with a full stainless system get abouth the same BHP and with less hassle.
But on a Project factor id say go for it :p

Well to be fair the carworx conversion used crappy GMC sigcon and 5th injector shit
No intercooler

But because it was low boost I heard it was quite reliable

And for driving fun - I'd rather have a 140bhp 1.4 8v alloy block, to a big heavy 16v

[106XSi_Jay]

Well to be fair the carworx conversion used crappy GMC sigcon and 5th injector shit
No intercooler

But because it was low boost I heard it was quite reliable

And for driving fun - I'd rather have a 140bhp 1.4 8v alloy block, to a big heavy 16v
Yeah but then again that 8v would be under alot more stress, i see where you are coming from, and agree fun driving it would be good but how long would that fun last?

[Norledge]

Not nessiselary (sp i know :p)

Look at the XU's in 205's... the 8v lump can handle the extra boost of the turbo so much better than the 16v Mi... which is best run N/A...

Turbo 16v TU's make 200 brake plus... but 200 can be acchived running bodies, while keeping reliability.

Plus bodies sound better ;)

[106XSi_Jay]

Not nessiselary (sp i know :p)

Look at the XU's in 205's... the 8v lump can handle the extra boost of the turbo so much better than the 16v Mi... which is best run N/A...

Turbo 16v TU's make 200 brake plus... but 200 can be acchived running bodies, while keeping reliability.

Plus bodies sound better ;)
That a fair point,
But id rather have 140 BHP out of a 16v without a turbo than 140BHP 8v with a turbo :)

[Norledge]

That a fair point,
But id rather have 140 BHP out of a 16v without a turbo than 140BHP 8v with a turbo :)

Oh i agree... but if you must have the wet fart sound of a dump valve... i'd say 8v :)

[scot-ish]

Not nessiselary (sp i know :p)

Look at the XU's in 205's... the 8v lump can handle the extra boost of the turbo so much better than the 16v Mi... which is best run N/A...

Turbo 16v TU's make 200 brake plus... but 200 can be acchived running bodies, while keeping reliability.

Plus bodies sound better ;)


ur rite there man, we have a S16 on bodies in a 205, its over 200 whp
owh, wat a thrill it is

[Fuzzy Orange]

You gotta remember the 1.4 quiky block runs MUCH lower compression than a vtr or vts

In fact it runs about the same as if you put low comp pistons in a 1.6 block LOL

Ideal candidate for a turbo and if you stick to 140bhp and don't get greedy with high boost they are reliable aswell :)

[Gina_G]

got to remember the extra torque aswell

[rich-gti]

quiky turbo was fun. brings back memories :D

[Marcs]

I'd rather the turbo'd quiky just for the gorgeous noise of that turbo:D:D
Would a conversion really be less work though?

[scot-ish]

I'd rather the turbo'd quiky just for the gorgeous noise of that turbo:D:D
Would a conversion really be less work though?

a supercharged car sounds so much better, well if u know wut ur listenin for,

[106XSi_Jay]

a supercharged car sounds so much better, well if u know wut ur listenin for,
Agreed the whining sound is awesome, If i had a supercharged 106 I would constantly be doing Sex Wees.

[Marcs]

Cant say i have ever heard a supercharger:(

But im really liking this idea of turbo'ing my quiky.
Not yet i think i will have to save and wait a few years so i can get insured but im really gonna read into it.
Could anyone tell me how much i would have to do/change to turbo a quiky?? thanks in advance:)

[mikey_b]

i think its pointless unless you have some serious £ to throw at it

[Marcs]

You know when you get one of those ideas:D
Its jus something i really wanna do. id rather spend that much to have a bit of an original quiksilver. And still be nippy like the GTi
But most of all for the noise:D

[Gina_G]

I would budget for around 2 - 3k, depends if you are going to be doing work yourself, using 2nd hand or new parts, how you are going to be lowering C/R etc

[Marcs]

Well im not gonna lie . .
I dont know a fucking thing:D
But i really am gonna try and research as much as possible i'd like to do it myself and like i said im only 17 so ill have to wait to do it insurence wise anyway so ive got plenty of time to learn.
So as much info as possible or where to go for info would be great!!
Thanks

[rich-gti]

Well im not gonna lie . .
I dont know a fucking thing:D
But i really am gonna try and research as much as possible i'd like to do it myself and like i said im only 17 so ill have to wait to do it insurence wise anyway so ive got plenty of time to learn.
So as much info as possible or where to go for info would be great!!
Thanks

you will be awaiting a good few yrs as insurance is a killer on a quiky turbo

[scot-ish]

yeh man ,it will b dear as heck

its not tht bad really

a mate of mine had his CTR charged at GMC, an a think it cost in total 5k, thats the lot supplied an fitted, an set up on a RR , altho it did take the fuckers bout 6 months to do it


another fella i know, turbo'd a vtr, for less than a grand, it all depends wat u wanna use, an how long u want it too last

[Marcs]

Well i was going for the long last idea:)
I also still wanna have it as a day to day car.
Is it possible to turbo it without making it unreliable??

[drift_spec04]

random question, what is the compression ratio through the 106 motors? the 1.4xsi, 1.6xsi, the quiksilver and the gti? if you ran 4-6psi of boost that could be quite reliable aslong as you had the correct gear,$ If you were going to go for forged internals that would be a bonus.. Every turbo sounds different on a different car so who know what it would sound like! if any if you guys know of a Toyota GT Starlet, those turbo's arnt huge but can pack a decient punch on a small engine that could be a start? I'd love to her a 106 spooling up!!

Engines are only as reliable as you make them, how much u spend is how much you get at the end of the day. some turbos can be cheap and nasty, others can go for miles and miles, running low boost would most defintley make your engine last longer tho.

[mikey_b]

my mate has a starlet, 1.3 turbo i think? goes like stink.

[drift_spec04]

ive driven one too, they are a 1.3 turbo and go nuts. i was thinking about using a starlet turbo on a custom manifold for my 106 but i dont have the time or the money to do it, and im not sure if it would fit under my bonnet. are turbo's common over from where your from?

[mikey_b]

theres a few turbo'd 106's over here. turbo'd cars are pretty common though.

[drift_spec04]

do you know where i could find any information on one? im interested :D

[Freedo]

dp engineering do excellent quality turbo kits for the 106.

[Marcs]

random question, what is the compression ratio through the 106 motors? the 1.4xsi, 1.6xsi, the quiksilver and the gti? if you ran 4-6psi of boost that could be quite reliable aslong as you had the correct gear,$ If you were going to go for forged internals that would be a bonus.. Every turbo sounds different on a different car so who know what it would sound like! if any if you guys know of a Toyota GT Starlet, those turbo's arnt huge but can pack a decient punch on a small engine that could be a start? I'd love to her a 106 spooling up!!

Engines are only as reliable as you make them, how much u spend is how much you get at the end of the day. some turbos can be cheap and nasty, others can go for miles and miles, running low boost would most defintley make your engine last longer tho.
Those starlets are beasts!!!

Thats what gave me the idea:)
I jus want the noise and obviously a bit more kick:)
So big boost isnt important:)

[drift_spec04]

Do you guys have the Pulsar GTi-R in the UK? those things beat the starlets hands down! A friend and i were going to do a GT starlet motor conversion into my 106.. except the wiring for the loom would be a nightmare :confused:

[Raz]

Do you guys have the Pulsar GTi-R in the UK? those things beat the starlets hands down! A friend and i were going to do a GT starlet motor conversion into my 106.. except the wiring for the loom would be a nightmare :confused:

sure do, mate got one and it runs mid 11's :)

cant beat a supra tho..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Raz

[drift_spec04]

ive been in a mid 11 second gtir and it scared the pants off me! haha. My favourite is defintley the R32 GT-R.. packs a good punch!

[djrem]

For a more indepth look at Supercharging and Turbocharging engines id look at here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercharger#Supercharging_and_Turbocharging

Because tbh, its not really a specific 106 question.

[mikey_b]

Do you guys have the Pulsar GTi-R in the UK? those things beat the starlets hands down! A friend and i were going to do a GT starlet motor conversion into my 106.. except the wiring for the loom would be a nightmare :confused:

yea we get them, a friend of mine has one pushing over 400bhp, shame he moved to brighton with it! :(

[sybez]

Whos ya mate with the Pulsar Mikey?

SC on TU engines are typically a Rotrex charger. They are very quiet and very efficient, some 5% loss. As said they give boost as soon as the throttle builds and it increases as the revs do, up to whatever the limit is set of either the rescrictor or pulley sizes. This makes them very easy to drive on track as there is power everywhere and no surprises if you plant the throttle mid corner. Its more like driving a big displacment engine in a small car. You can get the turbo "sound" as well by using a dump valve.

Turbo is different, yes you get some lag, but a well matched setup should be boosting from 2k and be at full boost by 3-3.5k all the way to redline so not too much of an issue. The real killer of reliability is torque. MA gearboxes for in our cars are made for shite, so even a 180bhp powered engine could dissintergrate boxes as the torque could be 220lbs, a few launches/wheel spins later and you'll be changing the box! (depending on clutch)
£ for £ SC is probably a bit more money, but should last longer than TC as theres alot less torque and heat exhange.

On standard internals, both SC and TC will be good for 8psi really, you'll have to lower C/R with double headgaskets but would give a nice 60% power increase in both bhp and torque, be realiable (although more routine checks will be needed) and embarrass a lot of other machinery on the road and tracks.

oh, Hi by he way! :cool:

[James.G]

welcome to the club sybez :thumbs: :)